00:16:25 Susan Deborah Radovsky: Good morning! 00:16:51 Susan Deborah Radovsky: If anyone is speaking, I can’t hear it? 00:16:59 Maria Pinkas: Good morning Susan 00:17:23 Susan Deborah Radovsky: Thank you, Michelle! 00:36:08 Adam Schiff: When you put the LCCN into a Wikidata item, it results in a link to Wikidata from the id.loc.gov display of the access point/heading 00:36:19 Adam Schiff: We are doing exactly that Paul 00:36:22 John Mark Ockerbloom: For our serials project, we’re putting our IDs into Wikidata items, but haven’t yet found it necessary to put Wikidata IDs into our items, and instead pull them out from Wikidata when needed with a SPARQL query. (This does involve a certain amount of trust in the stability of Wikidata, but so far that’s been warranted for our purposes.) 00:38:26 Adam Schiff: We are also adding LCCN and other IDs for LCGFT, LCMPT, LCDGT, LCSHAC, TGM, AFSET, and those links to Wikidata don't yet appear in id.loc.gov, but I hope NDMSO will make those links too, not just for the NAF and LCSH 00:38:48 Chiat Naun Chew: +1 Adam 00:39:08 Robert Rohrbacher: At Stanford we are adding lccns to the WIkidata items for members of Stanford's faculty. We have also been adding the URIs to the NARs (provided that there is a NAR for that person). 00:40:39 Chiat Naun Chew: The idea of having the substantive descriptions (i.e. the non-heading and non-administrative parts) live outside the NAR has a lot of appeal. 00:40:53 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: +1 00:41:01 Paul Burley: +1 00:41:10 Melanie Wacker: We (at Columbia) are also adding the LCCNs to the Wikidata items and we add the 024 to the NAR. Still investigating how much information to add to the NAR, but leaning towards not wanting to duplicate work. 00:41:44 Jesse Lambertson: We are also adding wikidata Q IDs to 024 (and the LCCNs to the Wikidata Items if they are not already there). Also, if the VIAF is in the Q item, I am adding those to the LCNAF entry in 024. 00:41:47 Adam Schiff: We are also creating items for some of our SACO proposals, when we want to use that in a field of work, instance, subclass, or other property for a person or corporate body. I typically wait until the proposal is approved and the LCCN will work as a link to create those items. 00:41:59 Joseph N.: Is the same thing true for Wikidata? In other words, are other institutions thinking of adopting a "Wikidata lite" regimen that emphasizes a few identifying properties, identifiers, and a label for the entity (and of course the Wikidata URI), and omits many other details, since creating a Wikidata item--even if you use tools that accelerate the process such as QuickStatements and OpenRefine--can be nearly as time-consuming as creating a basic NACO record? 00:42:14 plantze: NLM's wikidata pilot page 00:42:16 plantze: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_PCC_Wikidata_Pilot/US_National_Library_Of_Medicine_(NLM) 00:43:12 Adam Schiff: Speaking of MARC restrictions, why are WE still so restricted by scripts in MARC authorities? It's nearly 2021! 00:43:43 Beth Guay: One way to identify NACO lite records is to agree to understand that if there is a Wikidata identifier in records created after you are seeing a NACO lite record 00:43:56 Anna M Ferris: Since NACO records can be upgraded at any time, the NACO Lite identifier would become moot once someone adds anything new. Is that not right? 00:44:29 Zoe Dobbs: True, and then when does the record become no longer lite? 00:45:02 Adam Schiff: I think Wikidata item creation takes much more time than creating an NAR. We put a lot of detail into our items, even with just our core level properties 00:45:03 Diana Brooking (UWash): We put Wikidata identifiers into "real" NACO records (that is, non-lite) all the time 00:45:13 Larisa Walsh: I assume it could be identified by a special coding that would be changed after NACO lite record is enhanced 00:45:27 Chiat Naun Chew: It seems like the approach Paul is describing isn’t necessarily limited to BIBFRAME workflows, is that correct? 00:45:42 Jesse Lambertson: that is very helpful info, though, Paul. thank you 00:46:10 Isabel Quintana: A NACO record with a 1XX and 1 670 is a perfectly valid NACO record, if you have no other information. And we have many NACO records already that have only these 2 fields. So I'm not sure why we would try to identify these as NACO lite. 00:46:13 Susan Deborah Radovsky: Very exciting — thank you, Paul! 00:47:10 Adam Schiff: +1 Isabel 00:47:33 Chiat Naun Chew: This may be a separate discussion, but a potential next step is to bypass the NACO record altogether and reference the wikidata entry (or other non-NACO source) directly in your item descriptions. What you give up is the AAP control. 00:47:57 Casey Mullin: +1 Naun 00:47:59 Adam Schiff: How would that note in an NAR help anyone, Paul? These records are no different than any other, just not as complete as they could be. 00:48:02 Paul Burley: +1 Isabel, and I don't see the point of creating more 667s. Not sure why most of them are there now. 00:48:13 Joseph N.: Yes, it does often take longer to create a Wikidata item if you take an approach that includes a lot of exhaustive detail. (We have been, mostly.) But if minting identifiers is what's most important (and including, perhaps, some properties/labels that allow you to differentiate an entity from another), is all of that thorough detail really essential? It's helpful, definitely, and populates other applications like Scholia. But is it really needed, and is it slowing us down? 00:48:31 Iman Dagher: Would you consider variants as requirement in a NACO light record ? 00:48:49 Adam Schiff: I am already doing that in bib and authority records by given label from Wikidata and the RWO URI when there isn't a controlled term I can use 00:49:39 Adam Schiff: E.g. 374 Physical chemist ǂ1 http://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q16744668 00:49:50 Jesse Lambertson: Naun, I can see some ways there are possible forked workflows in what Paul described (MARC and BIBFRAME) - but, some challenges for 'authority' efforts are unique to BIBFRAME workflows, which is why I think the focus was on that. Or at least, that's what I see. What do you think? 00:53:27 Joy Panigabutra-Roberts: Thanks, Adam, for the example for items lacking controlled terms if borrowed from Wikidata. 00:55:49 Diane Shaw: I'm also wrestling with the issue of whether to create separate entities for personal named corporate bodies like photographic studios for my WD Pilot project (Dibner portraits) 00:57:03 Chiat Naun Chew: The draft Wikidata-MARC authority mapping (previously circulated to this group) is available at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1d4w10m6ChNshX8fiaqackiLlQvNt0K2fSlkY9XuKgb0_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=DwMFAg&c=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ&r=cYvH4KdFMqovZijO7eBBto5LWB23bGEMSfHU_p8CRKo&m=o0j_KtmbYP7StLl5gjTrkYCrSyzLGfNCa65bRLm86FU&s=rtVVwcyIZ7AOFxvmsHLoe5Zcr-urgnfHrMGAyZBNxG0&e= 00:57:23 Chiat Naun Chew: Oops, better link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d4w10m6ChNshX8fiaqackiLlQvNt0K2fSlkY9XuKgb0/edit#gid=1077502018 00:57:54 Jesse Lambertson: thanks Naun, I will want to look at that 00:58:45 Joy Panigabutra-Roberts: Thank you, Naun. 00:59:21 Chiat Naun Chew: In a previous discussion someone brought up the question of scripts not supported in the NAF — has that come up in the LC and NLM discussions so far? 01:00:24 Elena Sillitti: Sorry, is there an agenda of the meeting in progress? 01:00:25 Alex Vallejo (she/they) : The corporate bodies/personal name issue is on the horizon for me at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. I think for us, it may come down to how curators think of who is responsible for an artwork 01:01:14 Iman Dagher: What about the risk of linking to the wrong Wikidata item? any thought regarding maintenance? 01:01:23 Michelle M. Durocher: Eleni: the agenda topics for today are the U.S. national library projects at LC and NLM 01:01:35 Michelle M. Durocher: Sorry: Elena 01:02:36 P Dragon: We are struggling with the idea of notability too. Have started creating wikidata items for names we have some info/context for, but many we just have a name. So no answer here but just saying it's an issue for us too. 01:02:45 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: Paul, could you share an example of a Wikidata item that you’ve created in this process? 01:03:19 Susan Deborah Radovsky: I would love to see an example as well. 01:03:25 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: (And are you linking persons to works at all?) 01:03:40 Diana Brooking (UWash): We see a way we can use Wikidata for our own purposes, but I am not clear how Wikidata may feel about us. Re: notability. 01:03:47 John Mark Ockerbloom: It’s possible to get some properties marked as “established presumed notability” in Wikidata, which can be helpful. I’ve seen a case or two where a Wikidata serial record got challenged for notability before we added our ID, but I haven’t yet seen one after our ID (which is on a property that got tagged “presumed notability”) got assigned. 01:04:12 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: +1 John 01:05:02 Susan Deborah Radovsky: That would be great! Thank you! 01:05:14 Joy Panigabutra-Roberts: For notability, can OCLC no. added to the author’s item in Wikidata be used and enough for that? 01:05:24 Lori Robare: Could an LCCN have "established presumed notability"? 01:06:19 Joseph N.: Minimal Wikidata items might be an approach that many of us will take in our local application profiles, even for entities for which a lot of information exists. There would be a strange irony in replicating the same time-consuming laboriousness in our Wikidata work that characterizes our NACO work, given that this same laboriousness and difficulty was one reason for the pilot in the first place. 01:06:39 Casey Mullin: Well said, Joseph! 01:06:58 Chiat Naun Chew: +1 Joseph 01:07:11 Christa Strickler: I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing an LCCN would have "established presumed notability." Wikidata's "Mix 'n' Match" tool is set up to create new items based on LCNAF records, so that makes it seem like Wikidata is open to having items for anything with an LCNAF identifier 01:07:32 John Mark Ockerbloom: “ Wikidata property for an identifier that suggests notability (Q62589316) “: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62589316 “What links here” will get you to properties that have it. I don’t know offhand if LCCN is one of them. 01:08:14 Adam Schiff: There is a lot of discussion about gender/sex in Wikidata community too. See the discussion tab for that property 01:08:38 Karly (she/her): and this talk by Os Keyes: https://media.ed.ac.uk/media/Keynote+speechA+%22Questioning+Wikidata%22+-+Os+Keyes%2C+researcher+at+University+of+Washington/1_xf0eeff4 01:09:27 Christa Strickler: Here's a link to what I mean regarding "Mix 'n' Match": https://mix-n-match.toolforge.org/#/catalog/427 01:09:37 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: Link to the discussion Adam references: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P21 01:09:49 Adam Schiff: We can assign sex or gender: "unknown value" if we don't have the information. "unknown value" is a great option for some other properties as well, e.g. if you have a start or end time but don't know the other one 01:09:51 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: Sorry, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P21 01:09:56 Maria Pinkas: According to what it says about notability we are assuming that LCCN fulfills the criteria. 01:10:25 Maria Pinkas: Is this debatable? 01:10:47 John Mark Ockerbloom: (I don’t know offhand how you get a property added to “Wikidata property for an identifier that suggests notability” but I presume there’s some discussion. Ours got given that notation without my direct involvement.) 01:11:01 Lori Robare: I think the presence of the LCCN fulfills the "structural" notability criteria, making WIkidata more useful. 01:11:36 Lori Robare: I see many WIkidata items that have little more than a name and an ORCID id. 01:11:38 John Mark Ockerbloom: What might be useful is to propose adding it on the property’s discussion page, and if there’s no objection or direction to another discussion forum, go ahead and add the assertion. 01:12:24 Lori Robare: +1 John. 01:12:50 Chiat Naun Chew: A relevant difference between wikidata and the NAR might be that there’s a much larger population of users able to enhance a description later on. 01:13:00 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: Lori, from what I’ve seen at Wikicite, etc., the creation of items with just a name, an ORCiD and a vague instance-of like “researcher” seems to be a point of frustration, as its hard to disambiguate between those 01:13:08 Elizabeth Russey Roke: Wikidata items, I think, are meant to be iterative. We certainly focus our energy on linking our materials to the entities in Wikidata. 01:13:10 Jesse Lambertson: yes, very true 01:13:21 Iman Dagher: +1 to Adam 01:13:21 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: +1 Elizabeth 01:13:23 Beth Guay: or a bot 01:13:24 Joseph N.: Yes--agreed. Which might be another argument for taking a "lite" approach for the initial item you create. 01:13:32 Joy Panigabutra-Roberts: When I use the new macro from Gary via Adam Schiff at UW, MARC 670 will include all of the information in Wikidata including birth dates, gender, etc. So I need to think about what to do with this information. The NACO Lite model would keep all of this information. S’th to think about. 01:13:33 Mary Aycock: Sometimes it's bots that edit! 01:13:46 Paromita Biswas: +1 Adam 01:13:47 Jesse Lambertson: Ya, the the bots are 'a workin' for sure 01:13:53 Crystal E. Clements: Sometimes humans go in later and correct what the bots put in! 01:13:53 Lori Robare: Yes, Christine, I agree! Almost impossible to verify the identity. 01:14:16 Hsianghui Liu-Spencer: but how do you got an alert? sign up something? Adam? 01:14:30 Christine: I created a sibling relationship to an existing Wikidata item and the Wikitree bot immediately grabbed it 01:14:52 Adam Schiff: you can set your preferences to get notifications to your email 01:15:03 Paromita Biswas: You can put an item on your watchlist, and you get alerted when changes happen. 01:15:05 Elizabeth Russey Roke: In some ways, the important work is *establishing* the entity and letting the community fill it out. We can’t link without the entity, so that may be the most important step. 01:15:19 Paul Burley: It's interesting to have worked on very large Wikidat projects (as a participant, not organizer), and we didn't discuss notability or minimal Wikidata. 01:15:24 Joseph Angelo: +1 Elizabeth 01:15:27 Joseph N.: +1 Elizabeth 01:15:28 Adam Schiff: Go to Preferences > Notifications 01:15:30 Diane Shaw: The WD items from genealogical projects with no useful disambiguation info are bad, too, IMHO 01:15:36 Jesse Lambertson: thank you everyone, this has been helpful 01:15:36 Paul Burley: *Wikidata 01:16:17 Iman Dagher: romanization in WIkidata is of interest 01:16:37 Kristin Anderson: Genealogy and family names might be its own topic of interest. 01:17:09 Iman Dagher: thank you Michelle, Paulk and Liz 01:17:21 Susan Deborah Radovsky: Happy Holidays! 01:17:22 Gina Solares: Thanks all! 01:17:27 Christine Fernsebner Eslao: Thanks! 01:17:29 Paromita Biswas: Thanks! 01:17:32 Ellen Prokop: Happy holidays all! 01:17:38 EBurnand: Thanks all 01:17:39 Sonia Agnew: Thank you! 01:17:41 Ben Riesenberg: Thank you! 01:17:41 Felicia Piscitelli: Thank You! 01:17:42 Amy Eoff: Happy Holidays and thank you to all the presenters! 01:17:44 Emma Rogoz (she/her): Thanks 01:17:46 Joy Panigabutra-Roberts: Thank you, Paul, NLM colleagues and everyone. Happy Holidays 01:17:47 Maria Pinkas: Thank you. Happy holidays 01:17:47 John Mark Ockerbloom: Thanks! Hope the year ends well for all! 01:17:53 Thomas Dousa: Thanks you and Happy holidays to all!